Taz on RN"D Siman A

B"H

I was learning a bit with Binyamin (who I met at a Melave Malka Motzei Shabbat) and we went over a Taz that explained the opinions about roasting on Shabbat. I created a chart that explains what the Taz says the Mehaber (who the Taz says bases his opinion on the Rambam) and the Rama (who the Taz says bases his opinion on the Tur).

This chart shows where each stands on the difference between the opinions on using an open Tanur vs. a Tanur with the "mouth" sealed by pitch (tar) or a similar substance. The difference between kids and fowl and other meats (like goat or beef) applies only if the meats are cut up into pieces but if the animal is whole, the halakha is like beef and other meats. The reason that a sealed Tanur would be ok is that if you open the Tanur to stoke the coals you would ruin the meat.

Beit Yoseph: Kira She-hi G'rufa v'chu

B"H

I tried to look through the Beit Yoseph on my own, so I apologize for the gaps in (noted by question marks) and any misunderstandings I had of the text -- all comments greatly appreciated)

Beit Yoseph: Kira She-hi G'rufa v'chu -- Beit Yoseph quotes the mishna, then adds at the end that according to the gemara, Rav Sheishet says [what's "L'divrei Ha'Omer??] mahzirin (returning) means you can even return it on Shabbat.


Mem"shin: Rabeinu kol z'man she'hi rotahat -- if you leave it in your hand until the tavshil gets cold, it's assur to return it because [daled-hay-lamed ?] it's then like bishul (cooking). Rabeinu [who is this?] says in the name of the Ri -- everything that is a majority sauce and if you cook it it'll get better (mitztamek v'yafeh lo) and it's cold and it was returned to the top of the kira (and it cooks more and finishes the cooking?) and it was written in the gemara that if it didn't cool down even if there was a change in the sauciness a little you can return it and further it was written in the name of the Ri that if the food came to the point of ben drusai then it's ok to retun it but if it hasn't reached the level of ben drusai you can't return it if you left it (?)

According to the Ramban and the Rashba anything that is cooked (?) while it's still light -- so what does it matter if it's cooked when it's still day or when it's dark? If it was cooked right away after dark so then if it didn't get to the state of ben drusai while it's still day and it's still cooking and didn't get to the state (ben drusai) our Rabbis wrote in siman shin"het that if it isn't all the way cooked even if it's to the level of ben drusai it needs to get cooked even if it's still hot and after that how can we permit returning it here? If it's totally cooked, but specifically if it's not cooked all the way even if it's at the state of ben drusai it's assur to return it if there's any heat in the kira and the pot is hot from this heat.

Check out another blog:

Israel and it's Place in the World

(to the members of the HP/Edison Pirchei Shoshanim Habura/Hevra -- Please add comments, corrections, other sources. I want this to be a place where we all can share our ideas and other sources for and from our learning.)

What I Created this Blog for (and my first post)

B"H

I was sitting in a class about blogging and I don't quite remember what it was she said that sparked this, but I thought, wouldn't a blog be a great place to share our thoughts on what we're learning, or whatever else we're looking into to bolster our understanding of the path of Halakha and where the Shulkhan Arukh et. al. fits in.

Gemara Shabbat, Perek Sh'lishi (the 3rd Chapter) Daf Lamed-vav amud bet (page 36, side B) to Daf Lamed-zayin amud aleph (page 37, side A):

The Mishna begins by saying "a Kira that is heated with kash (straw) [according to Rashi, this is the "tails" of the bundles of grain] or g'vava (stubble) [fast burning fuels] you can put a tavshil on, if it's heated with gefet (according to Rashi, this is refuse from making oil) or wood [slow burning fuels] you may not put a tavshil on unless you have scraped it out or covered it with ask. Beit Shamai says hamin but not a tavshil, Beit Hillel says hamin and tavshil -- Beit Shamai says hamin you can put it on but not return it, Beit Hillel says you can ever return it." (according to Rashi, the difference between hamin and tavshil is that hamin is fully cooked and tavshil still needs cooking. [We have since learned that another opinion states that hamin is boiled water and tavshil is a cooked food.]

The Gemara starts by trying to figure out what the makhloket (halakhic argument) is about. First off, the Gemara talks about a breita (a piece of mishnaic literature not included in the mishna) that says "Rabbi Hanania says that if a food is at the level of Ben Drusai (either 1/3 or 1/2 cooked, depending on the source) you can leave it on a kira even if it hasn't been scraped out or covered with ash."

The Gemara then says there are two ways to understand the mishna as far as whether you can leave a pot on a kira on Shabbat:

1) You can leave it even if it is not scraped or covered with ash
2) If it is scraped or covered with ash you can leave it buy if it is not scraped or covered with ash you are not permitted to leave it.

There was then a discussion about a makhloket between Beit Shamai and Beit Hillel. This is a chart showing the two ways to understand the makhloket:

Tanna Kama	Beit Shamai	Beit Hillel
For fast burning or			aleph Sh’hia
Slow burning that	yes	yes	hamin
has been scraped	no	yes	tavshil
or covered with ash			bet hahzara
	notlim	notlim	hamin
	lo mahzirin	mahzirin	tavshil

The Gemara then wants to show how the makhloket can be interpreted as being about hahzara (returning the pot -- see section bet on the chart rather than sh’hia (leaving the pot on -- see section aleph on the chart). The Gemara says that Rav Helbo in the name of his teacher, Rav Hama Bar Guria in the name of his teacher, Rav that we are speaking here of "on top" but all is assur (prohibited) when speaking about the inside. The Gemara wonder why we should care whether it's on top or inside, since they are both allowed [when talking about sh’hia] then they bring a tosephta (another type of mishnaic literature often mentioned in the Gemara). There is a makhloket between Rabbi Meir and Rabbi Yehuda. If you have to kirot side by side where one is garuf (scraped) or katum (covered with ash) -- see picture below -- everyone agrees that you can't leave anything or return anything to the kira that isn't garuf or katum, the makhloket is about the left side kira.

According to Rabbi Meir, Beit Shamai and Beit Hillel both agree that you can't return anything. According to Rabbi Yehuda:

Beit Shamai	Beit Hillel
	Sh’hia
Nothing	hamin but not tavshil

hamin but not tavshil	hamin and tavshil
notlim but not mahzirin	notlim and mahzirin

Check out another blog:

Israel and it's Place in the World

(to the members of the HP/Edison Pirchei Shoshanim Habura/Hevra -- Please add comments, corrections, other sources. I want this to be a place where we all can share our ideas and other sources for and from our learning.)